Making Missions Less Punishing Without Decreasing Difficulty, and Increasing Player Enjoyment.

A huge part of the problems in this game can come down to a simple factor. The player lacks the gear.

Now you are free to disagree with me. Many of you do so with such fervency that I question if you can see past the nose on your face, but replaying the past missions over and over again has indeed led me to conclude that the difficulty of the early game and the brick wall effect of a handful of missions is not from a complete lack of the skills needed to beat such levels, but a lack of necessary gear.

There are certain missions within this game that are unfairly punishing.

Let me state the two areas which have specific follow up missions where such is the case. Beneath the frozen earth, and it's follow up the throne of stench. Order of the Core, and it's follow up Descent to the core.

I am noticing a very repeat and common thing in the forums, these two areas are where players give up.

Now here is where I am I have Riddle of the Gnome Lords, the first level 15 area, unlocked so I have in fact tackled these areas, and all areas elsewhere.

I have likewise read the complaints for all the areas that are to be had, and notice a repeat mention of these two areas more often then any other area within the entire game.

The largest factor, the power of their cards versus the power of your cards. With most other areas, the cards are either on par with your cards, or do not synergize well enough to have the potential of a brick wall effect to make it so you can't just use the cards you have gathered so far to beat the challenge. Not entirely the case with these two areas.

Beneath the frozen earth is literally almost right after the tutorial levels. A handful of forum goers have said this has made them want to quit, and one goes as far to say that upon reaching Order of the core, he decided to in fact quit, and also mentions he spent ten dollars on your game.

Let me emphasize that he spent money, on a game, that has not been mainstream released, because early on he saw the game as good, was then brickwalled, and may now never play again.

Now I spent money on your game, but I am on a whole different level as far as a gamer goes. I can say without a doubt that I am the Hardcore of the hardcore player. Have you played the original TMNT game on NES? Guess what? I beat the thing. Contra? Yeah beat that to. Zelda 2? Now and then I will go replay that for old memories and beat it. Hey remember The Guardian Legend? Yeah I took that down recently. Battletoads... Not so much, requires too much of pixel perfect timing for me to beat yet, and I don't have easy enough access to said game to show it who is boss quite at this time.

To say I am above the average gamer is an understatement. If your game is in fact meant to be hard, I am in fact in your target audience because I am not quite the person to let a game beat me.

That being said, these two areas have a few problems.

The first set of problems is the power level of the cards in the enemy deck. Their cards are at a level your cards have not reached yet. Now I can go replay these missions with all the cards I now have and beat them with a fair amount of ease. When you have the better cards these missions become a cakewalk, it is in fact why I think you made challenges for these missions to be accomplished after you "beat" the game. For an additional challenge.

However these two areas specifically, are above the power curve. I don't say this from reading the forums, I say this from experiencing it. Everything else in the entire game so far, felt like a fit to the current curve of power, these two areas felt above that curve. Am I wrong? I have a few doubts that I am truly wrong on this.

Now how can this be solved without lowering game difficulty? Interestingly it has an easy enough set of solutions.

For one, as part of the hints, when you open up shops, have the NPC's mention that it is best you only sell treasure you find, that selling equipment can make some missions difficult. That ten gold I gained was not worth the headache, and two days of full mission grinding the frozen earth caused me. Two days because I can only replay each mission once per day.

For the other way of looking at this problem, because let's be honest here, it would not be a problem if you were not having players saying they quit if it was simply hard. Hard games do surprisingly well, it's punishing games that lose audience. When you punish a player for making the wrong move that is one thing, when you punish a player for lacking gear because the RNG gods were unkind, that's entirely another. People do not yet have the right gear more often then not having the right "moves".

A lot of players here tell me how easy these levels are, and they have not only months of experience with this game, but all the gear that came with those months, and the gear, quite frankly, is meant to trump the mission when you have the better stuff presented to you.

These missions are easy for me as well, but then again, I have a lot more gear then when I first started said missions.

So how do you fix this, without decreasing difficulty, and make the game feel less punishing?

Let us replay the missions more then once per day would be a pretty good start. I'm not saying let us repeat the missions an unlimited number of times, but two to three times, would create less of a brick wall effect on the player. It would create less frustration, and end with less players quitting.

Because let's face it. If you can't beat the mission you need to beat. I emphasize "need" here, as you can not progress further if the mission in your way is blocking you from more missions, and then you can not replay former missions, you have locked your player out of the game for up to a full day.

You can say well PvP, well guess what, that is not always enjoyed by the player in a game that has a PvE option. Saying well go play an entirely different game is not a solution, it shows a complete lack of sensitivity to the actual problem.

Let players play a mission more then once a day. Not an unlimited number of times a day, but at least more then once. Doing so will give players something to do when a mission completely wipes the floor with them. A chance to get more gear that will aid their progress. This serves a twofold purpose. One, your game gets played more, and two, the player does not feel like they hit a gaming brick wall.

If your response is well they will beat the game too fast, and will not have a game to play in short order, I am going to have to ask you to remember, they plan to go to level 50. If two level 7 missions and a level 8 and 11 mission causes the players to completely give up the game period, you have failed as a game producer.

A hard game should be hard, not unnecessarily punishing. Don't punish your player base, challenge them. There is a difference between the two, and it needs to be learned.

 

You're thread discusses difficulty. If these areas were just "difficult" then I would join your thread and say well this is just to hard. This isn't about difficulty. This is about punishing areas. Players are being punished in these levels as opposed to challenged there is a very key difference in that regard.

I understand that this is a loot collecting game. This doesn't give the game the right to be outright unfair for not having the right cards and then not give us an avenue to collect more cards without playing a completely different game in multiplayer unless you wait a day. Yeah I get it, you don't want us to infinitely farm easy missions, making it so we have to completely stop playing for potentially an entire day is not difficulty it is punishing.

In DnD when you die, you remake your character, you aren't told (unless your DM is an ass) that you can't continue play until tomorrow. When this game beats you however and says you need better gear, it says you have to wait until tomorrow or play a completely different game in multiplayer.

That is not difficulty, that is a punishment.

And I think if players look at the game objectively they will see that these two areas step out of the power curve. I don't even own equipment that requires bronze tokens that has volcano and cave in even if I did I can't use it.

If we want to discuss difficulty here is your discussion. This game is hard and is not the hand holding type.

This does not give the game an excuse to punish the player.

 

Here this Video will help a bit.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun

Edit: Once you watch this video, I challenge you to call these two areas simply challenging, as opposed to defeating.

Players are quitting over these areas. This shouldn't be a goal point, this should be a red flag. These go beyond the grounds of hard and enter the grounds of punishing, as opposed to making a player feel like they could do better, these two areas make the player feel like they need better gear, or gear that is better suited for the challenge that they simply lack and need to get.

In the level 7 trog area, I had to regrind missions for two days. As in I had to replay the game, I had already played up to that point, twice, and I did so with new characters so I had something more to show for it, just so I could have the gear to beat that mission. This was just to progress.

Are you literally going to sit there and tell me that this is difficulty, or are we going to call it what it is and say that the game, is at this point punishing the player by not giving the player the avenue to play it.

The NPC's themselves Melvin specifically mentions that the game might be a bit too much about luck, and if a gamer like me had to replay all the missions twice to beat a single, solitary mission, then we have in fact gone beyond difficult and entered the realms of punishing.

I did not feel like I could simply switch cards or do something slightly differently, I did not have the tools needed to beat the level, and the game did not give me the options to do so, unless I played multiplayer, which is simply put, not the same game. I had to instead, wait two days to complete this level, and don't get me wrong, I tried repeatedly, and failed repeatedly, I tried different methods, I even used these forums and still lacked the tools.

The game punished me for wanting to play it.

 

Again you're thread discusses difficulty. How hard the game is perceived as. I am not discussing difficulty, I am discussing punishment. There is a subtle difference in terminology, but the difference itself is HUGE.

In your thread I can say that the goblin areas are hard, I can say skeleton areas are hard, or slime areas, I can say the treasure hunt with the 40-50 HP hydra was hard.

I can literally say every single mission is hard in your thread, and it would be drowned out by the fact that the game itself, for all intents and purposes, is a hard game.

What I am discussing however is not the difficulty as I can say anything is difficult given the right and proper wording. I could say the opening mission where I fought that Dragon was hard because it was actually intended for level 18 players with a lot better gear, and I didn't do it right.

No I am discussing the punishing nature of specific levels, and in your thread, I could easily wave off players remarks of difficulty with "No it's not because I can beat it with ease."

This is beyond difficulty and crosses the line of punishing the player. Difficulty is not the same as punishment, and comparing the two is like comparing night to day.

This does not invalidate your thread as being a topic of discussion, but you know what? Contra is hard, TMNT 1 for the NES is hard, Zelda 2 is hard. I could make threads and discuss how difficult and hard these games are, but the games did not excessively punish me by not giving me the proper tools to beat said levels.

On top of that while your suggestions are good, it does not particularly touch up on the unfair nature of these particular stages. You still refer to these things as difficulty, as opposed to punishing. This is the key difference.

I am using a different word because a different word is called for. These levels are literally punishing the player, and defeating the player, and not making the player feel like they could do better, but rather feeling like they can not beat it without specific gear that they simply lack.

I called the game hard when talking to my room mate, and he half handedly said, yeah, we'll go with that, but it was much harder "back then"

And this elitist attitude persists, except these levels are not hard, they are defeating. And when you defeat the player, you lose your player base. If that is the goal of this game then I assure you, only the truly skilled gamers will be here, because the game then is not intended to be hard, it is intended to punish.

Watch the video, this isn't about difficulty, this is about punishing aspects of the game, and there are easier ways to remove the level of punishment without removing difficulty.

To simply state that it is difficult understates the core problem.

 

I'd like to specifically highlight this paragraph. I think this goes in line with some things said on the Core Elements podcast. The real question here is, do players have the tools for the job? I'm inclined to say no but I'd love to see some of the metrics that has been gathered.

 

It belittles the real problem. Anyone can call anything hard. For any reason, for any cause, and people aren't going to listen to it. because anyone can call anything hard.

It takes a specific cause to call something punishing. People pay attention to this word, it has a different meaning. It is no longer about being something that is hard, and more about something that can not be done without specific requirements being met.

Anything can be difficult and hard. Fewer things are punishing, and unfair.

The difference between our topics? Yours is broad. Anyone can say, well I had trouble with this, this and this, it was hard. I beat it though.

Fewer people can say, this defeated me, I gave up and never looked at the game again.


These two specific areas I believe actually defeat the player outright (and I beat them), and are no longer about difficulty. They make the player stop playing.

So you can keep your topic on the term of difficulty.

And I will keep mine on the grounds of punishing and defeating. Your topic covers a broad aspect, mine covers a specific aspect, the defeating kind.

 

Basically it is a combination of two factors that makes these adventures too punishing for many new players: Lack of gear, and lack of experience with the game. That poses a certain danger for the reputation of Card Hunter: Because lack of gear can be overcome with money, some people will quit in frustration and complain that this is a Pay2Win game. I think that the lockout for the lower level adventures should be reduced from 1 day to 1 hour, so people could replay them for a while to get better gear and learn the game better if they have trouble with the later adventures.

 

Really? My impression from the various threads is that more people complain about the war monkeys than everything else combined. Next is trogs, then kobolds, netters, Stafford, and Melvelous. It seems to me only a couple people complain about geomancers, skeletons, and some dragon from somewhere.

So he didn't actually quit on trogs. Maybe BM could look at the last module completed by players who haven't played the campaign in more than a week, to see which ones show up most often?

Yeah, selling non-treasures is a mistake, but it's one I've learned from many other games. And really, the horrible prices you're offered could be considered a warning by itself.

Citation needed. Sir Knight said he frequently replays the module; he didn't say it was easy the first time.

But you don't need to beat either of these areas. Frozen Earth only unlocks Strench, and Strench doesn't unlock anything (it's Compass and Melvelous which are the required areas). And Order of the Core is a treasure hunt; most players will ignore it completely.

 

Funny in my playthrough it unlocked stench, AND the next area. At least that's what I remember. Though I could be mistaken. Order of the core is not descent into the core by the way.

And yes players are dismissing the difficulty with how "easy" they found it. Or shall I say it is largely implied when they say things like you already have the tools when you know that to be 100% false? The treasures don't sell much better by the way so perhaps the entire game is a warning to sell nothing?

Also the point is not where a player quits, but that he quit as early as level 8.

 

I totally agree with you about the exhaustion system. I understand they don't want us farming loot all day, but the current system is a bit ridiculous. Whether they allow us to replay modules 2-3 times per day, allow us to buy more plays with gold, whatever...just allow us more than once per day because as Ultreos has said, it feels like a punishment.

 

Yes a great number of the perceived problems being seen could be diminished or completely eliminated if players were allowed to gather the tools they may or may not still need. This seems to be a larger issue of lacking necessary equipment more before level ten areas as opposed to later areas.

 

Ultreos, I agree with a lot of what you have said here. I have a slightly different feeling about punishing as I feel it's how we learn and is a good thing. Perhaps it's definition issue.

While in the general sense I agree with you on the lack of gear, on the other hand I think I agree much more with Tobold when he says:

To illustrate that good play can overcome lack of gear, I'll quote my post from the trogs thread here:

I would say I found doing this challenging, but not hard, nor punishing. I failed my first try (honestly due to a movement mistake and then getting a few too many moves while I was already pinned down) and succeeded on my following two trys. Now I don't consider myself an above average gamer. In fact I'm much more of a designer than a gamer. I play games until I'm pretty sure I have the system worked out and there aren't any new mechanics coming, then I stop. I don't actually PLAY a lot of games, nor for very long. I do think about them from a designer point of view a lot though and so I do think analytic, strategic thinking is a strength of mine. I _might_ consider myself above average on the tactical experience side here.

Just wanted to throw out some more data into the conversation. Keep fighting what you think is the good fight! Personally, I like the difficulty where it is -- but that's for me and certainly not for all. BM will need to decide who they are targeting and what makes the best business sense for them.

 

Which again I don't want the difficulty decreased. I want a method for players to not feel like they have been brick walled. Which when you only get 1 replay per mission per day, brick walling can very much happen especially for the early levels for players.

Now as for your accomplishment. Congratz can't say I would want to do the same though I likely could. But it does not take away that the players who get brick walled are literally ending up lacking the tools. I took a look at the cards they give you completely unequipped and honestly I'm a bit surprised at how good those cards actually are in dealing with that scenario.

I'm a bit surprised you survived though to be honest. I couldn't figure out how to read the log so I couldn't say.

My point isn't to make the game less difficult however. My want is to make it less punishing. Difficult good, punishing bad.

As I have said previously, players like you and I being able to do this with relative ease should not mean that we don't consider how punishing a level is for players lacking the equipment.

Good play, and skill can in fact be a factor. That does not mean however the player is not lacking the gear for the job. They really are, and so was I actually. I can assure you I was, but I also was not aware of how many hidden wavering faiths I had which couldhave changed things for me at the time (I had sold most items that had wavering faith and only one on a piece of gear at the time.)

 

Again, not that I totally disagree with you and I think a fix would be to allow repeated replaying of the lower level adventures.

That said, seeing as it is possible (and honestly not that much of a struggle) to do it without any tools, banking a large portion of your argument on not having enough tools seems misguided. I think a better point you've made is that "Beneath the frozen earth is literally almost right after the tutorial levels." Seeing as this is a ramp-up in difficulty (punishment label not evaluated here) I think it would be good to allow players to hit it then allow them to chip away at it by being able to do the earlier adventures. It allows them to continue playing, maybe start a new party, get more items and continue playing even if they can't get past the increased difficulty quite yet.

I'm not sure this tactic holds true as you get into higher level adventures though.

 

This assumes you don't factor skill as a tool to be used in the game. Your skill level is obviously quite good though I would question how likely you would be able to beat that if the no gear didn't come with as many wavering faiths for example, or even none. Remember I said if I had known how many wavering faiths were hiding I might not have had the struggle I had.

On top of that your accomplishment has led you to believe it is not as difficult as it seems. Whether or not this is true is another debate altogether, but now you are waving off the challenge and difficulty in favor of your ability as a player being well above the curve, and essentially you are telling players then "you don't need any gear at all. So its not as hard as you think."

Which is going to leave the average struggling player go from the feeling of defeated to utterly devastated.

 

This is not something you can get from the game, so no, I am not considering it when talking about tools -- which we have separated from experience.

I would argue that I'm really not that good. I feel like I just employed a different tactic. Perhaps ability to use different tactics means I'm that much better? I donno. I'd say I'm slightly above average in that I can hold my own and maybe have some tricks, but I feel really middle of the pack, make lots of mistakes etc. Skill is a very hard thing to judge.

As the log shows I did cast wavering faith 3 times -- often because it was the only card in my hand. It's not quite as usable as you might think. I know I thought I was going to be able to use it more effectively than I actually was able to.

First use: Discarded Unreliable Block, got rid of Predictable Stab
Second: Discard nothing (last card), got rid of Tough hide (also last card)
Third: Discard Simple strike, got rid of Scuttle

But you see I DID have the wavering faith cards... everyone can. You don't need randomness to give you them. Why do you need to consider how well I would have done without them?

In a manor of speaking yes (assuming I'm way above the curve). It's a way of looking at it. I don't feel it takes any particular skill. Stay away from things that want to kill you, kill things when you can. Positioning and armor are the only things you really need to keep in mind for this challenge. There is very little else going on.

Perhaps we have a different view of the average player then. Average game player or average CH player? I see the average player getting through the challenge, perhaps after a few trys. Devs are taking stats on this so they know what the balance is. Non-tactical, casual player however, very different story. If they don't have the dedication to play enough to nurture the skill level to play these sorts of tactical games then no, they don't have the tools. I simply don't think this game is made for them.

 

Ok so you have then entirely dismissed a players struggle and calling it difficult because you would argue you're not that good.

So then, you are telling a new struggling player, as your advice to give to the community, get better?

Which we have already determined that for that day they can not replay misions to potentially learn some more and thus improve.

Again, as I said before. All the games perceived problems can be solved with some more playthroughs being allowed.