Pay to Win? Please tread carefully, this game can be amazing

I think this is something that needs to be highlighted. The time it takes for the equalization to occur. Due to random drops, this may give the sense that it takes a lot longer to get equivalent gear.

Whether any of these complaints about P2W is valid or not, it doesn't matter. The more avenues you allow people to purchase items, the easier it is for newcomers to glance at it and say P2W. Just take a look at Mojang's new beta game. There you can purchase 6 random scrolls (cards) PER WEEK with either gold or cash. But still, people see that and scream p2w and the game gains no traction.

I think Magic analogy falls short. In magic, I don't mind spending money on the cards because the cards still hold monetary value. I can always resell it back or trade it. I can even make a profit in some cases.

 

I think this analogy also fails in that MtG had an enormous player base from the physical card game prior to becoming a pc game.

 

I'd also like to reiterate that the reason I even started this thread is because I want this game to succeed so badly. Run-of-the-mill online games with micro transactions I generally just pass by without giving a ****, but this game is something new, fresh, and has more potential than people realize. The success of this game rests upon generating and maintaining a large player base, and I really hope the cash shop doesn't turn people off like it turns me off.

 

My concern is that spending money seems to give you a competative advantage in multiplayer. While it appears to be true that you can earn any item through play, but the problem is that with the introduction of using cash to purchace items it allows you to sidestep that aspect of advancment. Since multiplayer is likely to match you up with people with equivilent level parties this could throw things out of whack in a pretty major way.

For example, say you have 2 level 5 ish parties going up against each other in multiplayer. Player one has just relied on the random loot drops and gold earned through play. The other level 5 party has converted his pizza into gold, kitted out his adventurers with the best gear available in the shops, bought a few epic chest, and subscribed to the club. Who's going to win? How will you balance this sort of match up?

 

Ok, first of: try multiplayer ;-)

pvp is allways lvl 18 vs lvl 18, no matter how much you played the campaign. You also get a lot of guaranteed rares. Yes, you get more stuff with pizza, so you´ll probably get some good combos earlier. You win more games, you rank up, you play against players with similar equiptment. Yes, you´ll probably have to play more to stay level with someone who boughed pizza, but that person still gets the same items you do, and he can´t buff them. And that´s the basis of free to play: pay, and you get there earlier. it would be awful if you could buy additional power tokens with pizza, but Card Hunter is not pay to win, it does not let you do stuff like that. You can probably save some grinding time ( you still have to get lucky ), thats all.

 

As someone who has suckered in and gotten thoroughly pissed off at a number of freemium games on the Kindle Fire -- and also dropped $100/month on MtG Online -- I can honestly say that the only thing about Card Hunter that worries me in terms of turning people off is the display of the Adventurer's Club loot next to the normal loot.

I can also honestly say that the very first time I saw the word "Legendary" pop up over the Adventurer's Club loot, I whipped out $20 and joined the club on the spot. So it works. (I purchased the entire treasure hunt chain after finishing Woodhome as well.)

If it were me, I would force-feed the players that little purple cushion non-stop for the first one-two weeks that they've played, and then give them the option to turn it off. If they're not going to give you money for loot by then, they probably never will -- and even then, they'll still have the treasure hunts, costumes, chests, and other reasons to whip out their wallet s******ing at them every time they look at the map. That way you get the best of both worlds: the temptation is there when it's the strongest, but it's not still there taunting people months later when all it'll do is upset them.

 

Ooooh...that could backfire pretty hard if it's not made very clear to the player on day one that it's a 'free trial period'. Lots of people would get pissed and drop out if they suddenly felt like something that was 'normal' was being taken away. Maybe if the club became free after a few adventures -- like, a free trial was part of the prize for finishing Woodhome or something -- but not right at the beginning.

 

I do see this as a huge problem.

 

And that's the key. All of this talk about p2w seems to be on the basis of equal play skill. Truth is, you can buy all the good cards and still lose every game, even to people with lesser cards. As you win, you rank up and are playing better players with better decks.

If you are really a top tournament player where the p2w breaks down, you are already accustom to paying for specific items to round out your deck or get that key item. That's how top competitive games played with personally owned resources are. If you are not a competitive top ranked player you aren't even going to know who purchased items or who just went through the grind to get them. It's all the illusion of fairness. If nothing else it gives you an excuse when you lose. "He just bought his cards! He doesn't know how to play..." Of course it's a skill game so if they don't know how to play what was it YOU did wrong?

To try to set this into perspective. Let's say card hunter gets popular and top strategy game players from other games start playing CH for the multiplayer aspect. Do you really want those players, who will come with a decent following and exposure for the game, to have to grind through the game for months before they can create a deck to play at the level they are used to? Why would they bother?

 

Straw man. No offense, Blindsight, but your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with p2w, and bringing in the issue of player skill just clouds the issue. Card Hunter, if it does attract a bunch of top strategy players, will do so despite the fact that you can't buy in instantly -- because that's how the game is set up. If it doesn't attract a bunch of top strategy players because you can't buy in instantly, then your argument is moot anyway, because those players you're arguing about simply won't be here. It's a self-defeating argument and has almost zero do to with the actual problems created by p2w mechanics.

Not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to keep the discussion focused and clear. None of the problems of p2w are relevant to player skill except when p2w becomes a replacement for player skill -- which, if you're discussing top-tier players, you've already established isn't the case.

 

Totally disagree. Pay to win suggests you pay money, you win. In CH you pay money to get resources (that other people can get without paying it) that you then have to use correctly. Sure, if somehow all of your damage cards out range and out damage your opponents you have an advantage, but then you rank up and are going up against people with better cards and that know how to deal with your strengths. P2W I don't feel is really the issue, the illusion of P2W is.

But it's not. If it was how the game is set up then why are we having this conversation?

Feeling like being snarky and agreeing with you that it has nothing to do with the p2w mechanics because I don't see them as p2w at all.

Seriously though, when designing the player experience you want to be inclusive to those who will bring the greatest benefit as customers. While top tourney level, strategy game players (and honestly I'm not sure what types of games they would come from) may not be the core target demographic, it would be short sighted to design an experience that does not encourage them to be part of the community. I would argue, based on the type of grind for the game, that not being able to purchase gear alienates them. Either way, the "top players" aspect was simply another angle of looking at the "p2w" mechanics. The root of that argument is recruitment, and time needed to get resources required to be competitive up to the ability of the player.

No jerkyness received. I do think that player skill comes into play however, due to the ranking system. Assuming a close to perfect ranking system (which I haven't seen discussed as of yet) your multiplayer matches will, after a short time, always match you to players who are relatively on par with your skill with your current card set. Both skill and cards determine your ranking, and thus your opponents. That being the case, even if you get all of the top cards, unless you are a top player, you aren't winning any more matches then you were before -- you may be at a slightly higher rank though.

I don't see how you are paying to win at all. Just turned a play to play game into a pay to play.

 

Fair enough I just got brought into the Beta yesterday, haven't had a chance to play MP at all yet. Thanks for the heads up

 

Don´t worry, marten tells you to play MP at some point in the game, and you really should. You probably have no use for the items from the rare chest in the campaign due to the lack of power tokens, but you will see soon enough that you are bound to get some cool stuff. The difference between rare end legendary items is usually not that big, luck and a brain is usually much more important than 3 or 4 better cards in the overall deck.

 

Rare items just give you more rare cards. For example, a legendary weapon will often have almost all rare cards, while a common weapon would have no rare cards.

But,if you pay attention to the card set rather than the items, you'll notice that many of the most powerful cards aren't rare.

Obliterating Spark the best spark card, is common.

Wall Of Fire one of the best mage spells, is common.

Resistant Hide one of the best armor cards (one of my favorites as it shuts down lava), is common.

Parry one of the best block cards, is common.

Vicious Thrust one of the best attack cards, is uncommon.

Martry Blessing possibly the most OP card currently available, is uncommon.


I could go on with this list for a long time. Much like any good collectible game, many of the best cards in Card Hunter are actually at the lower rarities. Based on how the items work, that means you will get them on lower rarity items. There are also good spells at rare, but you can build one heck of a deck without them.

 

So the way multiplayer actually works is that all characters are boosted to level 18, meaning they've got 4 minor power tokens and 4 major power tokens, and when you do the pvp intro, you're given a free multplayer pack that includes a bunch of higher level items.

To say that the pricing system disincentivises buying gear more advanced than your party would be to put it politely. There's a multiplier for each level ahead of your party, so a level 5 party buying level 18 gear in the shop would be paying 14 times it's base price (18-5 to get the multiplier, then add the base price).

What the money buys you is options. The default multiplayer pack is a "balanced" warrior, priest, wizard combo. The paid packs include a dwarven warrior, warrior, priest set or a triple elven wizard set or the "bash bros". The dwarves in particular some very handy cards, but none of them are so good that they should be considered "must buys". You'll start replacing gear pretty quickly as you play multiplayer or finish the campaign.

There was a very interesting thread on this by Sir Knight, where he actually dropped a *lot* of pretend money (when it was free) to get a leg up - http://www.cardhunter.com/forum/threads/my-attempts-to-pay-to-win-before-any-data-wipe.823/ . His results were that you can, in fact, buy an advantage, but it's pretty minor.

The paid stuff is primarily a) more content, if you care about that, and b) an increase in the natural rate of advancement. You can get chests with money, or with gold, or with time, and the fact that everything's random really dampens how much advantage you can buy with money.

Read Sir Knight's post - it's quite interesting.

Edit: thanks for the correction, Gentley

 

Almost, they are boosted to lvl 18, but with 4-4 tokens, dont ask me why, but it results in them missing 2 hp and 2 minor tokens.