Cancelling Moves - Thoughts and Suggestions

I would be fine with A

 

I'd like to chime in and say that I agree that it's a problem that move cards can't be cancelled. Option A seems like a step backwards though, and all the other options have some pretty serious drawbacks. So I'm gonna vote for what I call option E:

Option E: Redesign Problematic Card Effects
The move sequence would look like this:

The Move Sequence
1. Mouseover card, valid locations including all modifiers are shown. (In this case, encumber and movements boosts don't, and can't, "trigger" - they're simply included in the move distance.)
2. Select card.
3. Valid spaces to move to are shown.
4. Player selects a valid square. Point of no return.
5. Encumber and movement boost cards that affected movement are revealed, and reaction cards trigger.

The reaction cards would be cards like Maze Of The Mind or Unstable Bolt. It would simply now trigger AFTER the target square has been selected.

Under this system, you wouldn't be able to have chance-based encumber and movement boost effects. However, there aren't very many of those - as far as I know it's only Slowed and Demonic Miasma. The solution, then, is to simply redesign those cards. Instead of triggering when you play a movement card, they could trigger at the start of your turn, and if the die roll passes they get attached and are now a guaranteed reduction. Or just change them to something completely different.

The question, then, is whether or not the inclusion of this mechanic on a few cards is worth keeping at the cost of making movement cards 1) not show an accurate movement range on mouseover, and 2) not be cancel-able like other cards. Judging by the sheer number of posts on this topic ever since the start of beta, it seems pretty clear that people consider this a major UI flaw, and I find it hard to believe that keeping it the way it is for the sake of these few cards is justified.

On a side-note, I know you guys have ambitious plans for Card Hunter if it's successful, which presumably includes an eventual iOS version (On a side-sidenote, I've been using a remote desktop app to play CH on my iPad, and it's AWESOME - it just feels so perfectly suited for a touchscreen). And if this is a major problem now, when people are using a mouse to select stuff, it's gonna be an even bigger problem when an errant brush of your hand forces you to play a movement card you can't take back.

As a bonus, this system would make it possible to force step cards to attack someone - the "point of no return" would be after selecting an attack target, and if there's no valid targets at the end of the step you'd be forced to cancel the card.

 

Like I said, make it optional. You don't have to have the prompt. Want to play without it? Go nuts. Don't like it? Don't use it.

But in return, it offers players who go 'crap' after they've clicked a move card and didn't check a enemy wizards line of sight a chance to undo. It allows players who accidentally click the move card because they have been clicking pass 3 turns on and want to discard it the chance to back out when they attempt to use it.

I don't see how an optional toggle will affect anyone except those who want a confirmation dialogue (in which case they can get one).

 

I would like to note that i share the above observations of "Neofalcon" 100%

if the counterargument to this problem is "Hey i can live with that" is that really the solution to pick?

 

I think a good counterargument is that it is a relatively complex solution compared to simply putting in the option for a confirmation dialogue.

Another counterargument is that you then need to do mental arithmetic to figure out encumberance, and additionally pathfinding AI would need to be built expressely for that purpose.

 

Yeah, this problem has been bugging me a lot since starting last week and the solution, for me, seems to be what Neofalcon said. Known move modifiers should be included in the move range selector and reactions should trigger after the move is actually confirmed (by choosing a target). If there are one or two cards that don't work under this system, then they will be missed a lot less than this 'feature', I feel.

 

Thank you everyone for your contributions to the discussion. It seems to me like it comes down to whether, if all cards were unable to be cancelled, the majority / a significant minority of people would be put off to the point they'd stop playing or whether they'd persevere and learn from their mistakes.

• If they'd persevere then A, no cards can be cancelled, would be fine (maybe have Gary pop up if you select are card for which there are no valid targets).

• If they'd leave then I think the idea of a menu option along the lines of "confirm cards before playing" would be a good one. For simplicity and consistency it should probably apply to all cards rather than just moves, but I guess it wouldn't have to.

In response to Neofalcon's suggestion E. It is an elegant solution but I'm not sure I like the idea of reducing the design space. Sure there may be only two cards now, but if there were expansions they'd be reducing their options when they create new cards. If it is possible I would love to see the potential spaces to move to shown when mousing over a move card reflect any known encumbrances and boosts.

In any case, I think that there is an issue here that needs looking at and I very much hope that BM will revisit it.

 

I think the point is that many people wouldn't persevere. While I (and probably anyone else posting here) probably would, these are the sort of minor annoyances that drive casual players away. I have a friend who loves these sorts of tactics games, but I know for a fact the moment he wants to cancel a card and can't he'd tell me that that's "stupid", and if it he does it multiple times he'd probably get frustrated enough that he'd just stop playing.

No offense, but this isn't a great idea. People loathe these sorts of constant confirmations - everyone would turn it off. And once everyone turns it off, they'll get frustrated about being unable to cancel moves. You can say "But it's their own fault for turning off the confirmation option!", but that doesn't change the fact that both options are pretty terrible. I mean, would you leave the confirmations on? I sure wouldn't.

Yes, this is true - that is the drawback for option E - it does limit potential design somewhat. But the only cards it really rules out are:

• Encumber and movement boost effects for your characters from cards that are in your opponent's hand (as they'd have to be revealed prior to you selecting a target)
• Chance-based encumber and movement boost effects

I'd argue that not having these types of cards though is worth the tradeoff.

On this point you and I (and 73% of the people who voted in the poll) are in agreement - I wonder if the recent changes to encumber and movement triggers (having pre-triggers and whatnot) are a move in this direction.

 

None taken, and I didn't mean for it to be on by default.

I'd like your input on the following:

Player presses move card, encumberance is loaded from local sources. There is a cancel button. If cancel is not pressed, and a destination square picked, enemies reveal their movement affecting cards, movement is then recalculated, player chooses somewhere else to move accordingly.

Basically the problem as it stands now is players clicking move and then being unable to check mage sight lines, or clicking move when they were meaning to discard that on a pass they had initiated

 

I think that this would probably work just fine. People just need a way to be able to cancel after using that move card for the first time.

If an opponent then has a card that messes with their plans after they've selected a target square, well, that's not a UI problem anymore - that's an opponent playing well.

 

The problem with cancelling move cards, as I see it, is that it's actually difficult to plan your move without first clicking on the move. It's a graphic issue.​

When I want to move a character, first I want to see where he can move. In order to do that I need to hover on the move card. But, the places I can go very rarely fit on one screen, and I might need to move the map around, dragging it. That means I must hover, move the map, hover again in the new position, all the while not being able to see a clear, uniform picture of all the places I can go to. I could, however, click on the card, then drag around to get a good view of the battleground. If I already clicked on the card, I can move the camera while still seeing the little blue arrows. But at that point, I can't go back! It's too late to realize that hey, I can't really go in a good place, it's best if I just attack. That's unfun, and punishing.​

I realize there are problems with canceling the move cards. However I feel the option should be there, a confirmation click, perhaps as an option to toggle from the menu. You just add one click, but the interface becomes way clearer.​

 

How about...

Option F: You can cancel moves except when there's a good reason not to let you.
When you click a move card, you can cancel it unless another card is triggered. If another card is triggered you can't cancel the move.

 

Unfortunately, this misses the point. The very fact that cards can be triggered means that either result gives information. I play a Move, something is triggered, and I know what is in the enemy's hand; I play a Move, nothing is triggered, and I know what isn't in the enemy's hand.

No, seriously. That's a big strategic issue and is the sort of thing that drives people bonkers when setting up rules like this.

 

Well, maybe Option F would be nice for the single player campaign only then. Then if you think this kind of move cancelling has an unfair tactical use you don't have to use it and the AI won't use it on you. I've personally been in a few situations in campaign adventures where I'd like to cancel moves, but no card has ever triggered in response to my move yet to my recollection (my PCs are only lvl 8 though so I don't know about the rest of the campaign).

 

Surprising number of mindreaders in this thread who know what "everyone" will do when given an option.

Gray

 

Well, have you used Demonic Miasma or Rushing Aura? I can't remember how early they show up, but those are cards of your own which will trigger. Once they do, they are now "revealed cards," without even getting into the question of enemy-controlled cards.

And just to be clear, there are plenty of effects that relate to "number of revealed cards" or "oldest revealed card," so exposing your own cards against a computer matters.

Edit: Silly me, I forgot about Slowed, an example that lots of enemies have. It getting revealed when the computer plays against you likewise gives you an advantage when using those revealed-cards-dependent effects.

 

OK - so there are a number of cards that players can use or that the AI uses in single player that trigger when you select a move card. In my Option F (single player only), if one of these cards or any other card triggers/reveals when you select a move card, you can't cancel. If no card triggers/reveals, you can.

Sir Knight - I think you're saying that if the player getting the information that the AI does not have any cards that trigger on player moves is important, then under Option F the player could select moves cards specifically to find out this information, provided they don't mind moving if the opponent does have one of these cards.
I'm saying that this is a deliberate tactic that people don't have to use in single player if they think it's unfair - but let people in single player do it if they want. The ability to cancel moves in sp when selecting the move card doesn't have any card triggering or revealing effect is worth it imo.

 

My main problem was forgetting that there were encumber attachments to my characters as I tried to move them. Maybe paying attention to this just takes practice. Or, maybe there is a way to highlight encumber attachments so there is a slightly easier way to not forget about them.

 

To echo your paying attention comment, playing 3 female, elf Wizards I'll often get confused as to which is which. This is even more of a problem if the enemy team has one or more characters that look the same as mine. If I'm too hasty I'll click a move card on the wrong character. Yes, paying more attention could help but it also becomes tedious to have to mouse over, wait for the brain to recognize which character starts jumping up and down and mapping that to which character I actually want to use. I realize that sounds stupid, but it's a high cognitive load for something that we otherwise take for granted as being instant. Because of that we (I, at least, certainly do) often will skip the complicated recognition part because our brain already thinks it knows the correct answer...

This does point to an overall problem with the recognition of the characters and differentiating them from the enemy characters however, being able to cancel moves would remove the penalty for making a recognition mistake making this less of an issue. "Oops, not that one" rather than, "Crap I lose."

 

Me too, especially trying to Walk with an Entangling Net. I like solution C: color code the move preview to show best case and worst case scenario involving all cards you can see. Then have opponent's cards only trigger after I choose my destination; for Reactive Trip just change "cancel" to "undo". Actually, that card doesn't seem to be in the game any more. Is Puppeteer's Headband still in the game? If not, then I believe there are no longer any cards that react to an enemy's movement.