Vengeance needs a saving roll

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When I first started CH a sneaky Surging Shield Block was the coolest way to get into position. It only works half the time, and not really ever against wizards because they're either a) hitting you from range 8 or b) using hard to block at range <6.

Then came along Sparkling Cloth Armor which is the armor that keeps on giving. But it has two downfalls, a) easily dissolved/boiled/sundered and b) sometimes blocks the damage that would trigger movement, see Glob Of Flame and Winds Of War. In any case sparkles is way cool.

Now we have Vengeance. It has no saving roll. Its' only weakness is Entangling Roots (which still triggers movement) and Inquisitor's Badge, kinda... sort of. It works against both melee and ranged... really well against ranged.

But don't forget the itemisation ('itemization' if you're 'murican). Captain Cedric's Vow? Awesome. Final Sword? Very Awesome. Snitrick's Last Stand? Oh come on that's crazy.

So my issue is this card is good, too good. I know it got play tested and found reasonable. I dispute this finding. I challenge your beliefs. I call shenanigans. This card needs a weakness so I call for a vote!

 

Poll related:
What do you mean by "-Keep" This would be terrible if you lost the card after moving once. Also what does "Armor 1" mean? I hope you aren't thinking of changing the move text to armor, that would be garbage. I don't see an option to reduce damage more.

 

-Keep would mean you lose the card if you got hit and moved.

Armor 1 would mean the card is an Armor that could be dissolved. Same same current move text.

 

-Keep would be the worst idea ever of these, it would make this worst then surging shield block or sparkling cloth armor ignoring card rating.
Armor 1: Do you mean the card would be Attack, Armor instead of Attack, Boost?
Are you going to add the reduce the damage by 1 or 2 option?

 

A guaranteed move 2 is the worst idea ever yet is the current card text. With Keep it is beyond crazy.

Armor 1 would mean a hybrid that could be easily countered, like Polearm Slash.

Edit: Extra vote options added

 

Your thought is ridiculous.
The mail is armor 2 rolling 4+ ; the sparkling cloth armor is armor 1 rolling 3+ . Add moving 2 when take damage effect transform it from paper to silver upgrading 2 levels. 8/1 hack is bronze and vengeance just be added the same effect based on strong hack, upgrading 2 levels. So I don't think there are any problems with vengeance now. Just because mages are defeated by wars, you add saving roll to vengeance. If we warriors are beaten by mages, can I add saving roll to telekinesis? Perhaps you won't agree. If your mages are defeated by warriors with vengeance, it can only suggest that you are not skillful. Please find reason from yourself but don't complain in the forums.

 

Yes I am not skillfull. Thanks for your input. I tried to update the poll to include "you're crazy rinco69 shut up" but it won't let me. Next time gadget, next time.

 

My thoughts on the options:
Option 1, add a roll requirement for the move effect:
A reasonable option but people don't generally like luck in this game.
Option 2, triggers the move effect when targeted by a damaging card played by the enemy:
I like it but it would make it more complicated.
Option 3, remove keep from the move effect:
Garbage, this would be worst then both the aforementioned cards ignoring the qualities.
Option 4, add new effect which would require no roll and provides armor 1 keep:
I don't know if this is a nerf or a buff but I don't like it flavor wise and it would require three text boxes.
Option 5, add new effect when you draw this reveal this:
Technically you might need another text box but power wise it would be a potent debuff.
Option 6, change the move effect to only move 1 when triggered instead of 2:
A nice idea but would be too big a debuff.
Option 7 and 8, Change the rating of this card:
Would make some items completely unusable, so no way.
Option 10, decrease the damage of the attack part by 1 or 2:
I voted for this, a single point or two should make this not quite so potent.

 

Funny thing is, this player actually is a top tier player (currently 1875 rating). I guess he isn't the smartest player though.

 

#2!! #2!!

I cannot edit the voting. But I reckon another option is it triggers only on Melee Damage. Hey? Hey?

 

Was that a joke, I hope so because that would be pretty terrible if that wasn't. Only triggering on magic or projectile damage would be a little more reasonable.

 

Either way

 

I agree that vengeance is indeed a little bit too powerfull for a gold card quality.It's a attack card which cannot be removed by no means,expect if a mage casts Memory Lose...
Well to be honest I think the only thing that could nerf a little bit of this attack would be like saving a roll of 2 or even 3.
By no means I am not someone who dislikes vengeance... but it can over abused and I have seen more than one deck which relies on this card to get the lacking movement a person needs. I think that most people would disagree tho,since it has become the core,the lifesaver of a lot of players which make decks based on it.
My final opinion,although it's too early to speak of nerfing vengeance,still it should be considered,I know it's one of the best attacks cards CM era provided but still,this card is too powerfull in the right hands.

EDIT:Although only the number one person can be wise,I am gonna pay my respects for this time to rinco,since he's kinda right

 

how about enormous selfdamage when blocked or discarded. Vengeance needs fullfilment after all.

 

path of knives on vengeance is a prob and it can get worse with mart bless.

People either hold on to it for position and wait for other damaging cards or get in position and use the card itself. I see more people holding on to it way too long. I think if it were 4-6 dmg it you could still position yourself but would have to rely on your other cards for the dmg.

 

What if -Keep meant the card was discarded at the end of the Round, if revealed. "Vengeance is Fleeting".

 

Does not trigger from attachments maybe, if you really want to nerf it, the itemization other than snidrick seems kinda bad tho.

 

i think the problem with vengace its not that move 2 or is "low" 8 dmg but the density that you can have in a character that can go up to 8 (but a cost of steps) and that makes it more reliable than drawing a single sparkling. Making warrior or priest harder to kill (by wizards, other warriors or priest). Im pretty sure that if where harder to get into a character there where no issues with it.

 

Maybe its just me...

But I like that Vengeance is a good card. It's a gold, and it's going to cost you to get it into your deck. But it is powerful (as gold cards should be).
I like that it gives a indirect boost to Memory Loss.
I like that it creates new decisions in the game for both the user and defender:

- Do I stand here and not attack so I have my Vengeance next round, or do I deal damage while I can, but lose my mobility?
- Do I try to take out the Vengeance character because they're dangerous, or do I ignore them and avoid so they don't gain extra movement from my attacks?​

Most Vengeance decks have one of two inherent weaknesses.

1. They have low movement because they rely on vengeance for movement. - These are weak to the ignore strategy as they can become fairly stranded.
2. They bring vengeance and movement, and don't have the tokens for good damage. - These are weak to the just kill them fast strategy.

I'd also note, we were explicitly told this expansion has intentional power creep.

My choice, I'd leave it as is. But if it was going to be nerfed, I'd either drop damage slightly, or reduce to move 1 and decrease quality to silver.

 

I'm all for this! Maybe Silver+ , but still, fair.