PvE gameplay feedback: Elf Wizard

Not sure how many testers have used all 9 chars and drilled through the lower levels repeatedly. Maybe the devs can grab some statistics and post them here. I went and played thru from lvl 1 to lvl 10 for all the 9 chars and my experience so far is fairly even with the exception of the Elf Wizard. If there were a Shieldhaven Book of World Records: she'd be the top with most deaths in my book.

Looking thru my character sheets and comparing HP for lvl 10:

Dwarf warrior/priest/wizard: 25/22/19
Human warrior/priest/wizard: 22/19/16
Elf warrior/priest/wizard: 19/16/13

My parties are largely random collections, no specific builds or combinations. Basically adapt to the opponents style and play till all chars are pretty much the same level, then switch them out. The issue seems to stem from the minions at around lvl 9-10 where the 13 hp can go to zero in 2 hits/1 turn. Since the elf wizard has to rely largely on movement for survival, she becomes a situational pawn. A virtual liability in games where movement is limited and a gem in open spaces. While I do understand that she is largely designed for offense, a certain amount of finesse is essential for playability. Definitely not one for beginners.

Hp distribution across class and race are pretty straightforward in beta, at intervals of 3. I'm skeptical about this linear growth and the damage curve from minions. If lvls 9-10 are dealing damage approximately 7-8 on average, then the lower hp distributions are falling into one end of the spectrum and in danger of being outclassed at higher levels. Movement advantage is negated by hp difference. The elf priest/wizard and human wizard require rework to avoid stereotypical parties.

On another note, I've had most success with dwarf + human parties, favoring the human warrior with 2 x dwarf combos. Hp literally translates into better survivability than mobility does. Since we are still in beta, I hope this simple feedback would be useful to devs. Cheers!

 

The only elf i would consider is warrior and even then only if i have access to strong but encumbering armor. That said the elf dodge skills with keep can be just silly.

 

It is a good point. Innate movement difference between dwarf and elf is constant whereas the HP difference increaes linearly with levels.

Furthermore: Mobility is great, but it is not the end all since it is often limited by victory square and difficult terrain. Whereas extra HP are always good.

Talking out of my arse since I am not even i Beta, but maybe one one to balance it is the 'Legolas walking on Snow' thing:
Elves can treat 1 square of difficult terrain as normal when it comes to movment at 5 and they can then ignore one more square every X levels.

 

that doesnt work within the rules of the game races and clasess dont have innate talents they have access to different cards and starting hp thats it.

Personally i don't think damage will scale as fast on later levels letting elfs catch up and actually be valuable but i could be mistaken. Even if it did scale up a lot the more damage attacks do the stronger dodge is.

 

The question of HP is important, and hopefully it will be balanced, and it's awesome that you did the playtesting. Was it fun?

I'm replying to add more on this part:

I've noticed a number of people dismissing the value of default Move, underestimating Encumber effects, and so on. I kinda wrote an essay on default Move and related issues, so I feel strongly here.

If you're concerned about HP balance across the span of gameplay, don't forget that Move balance is always there. Consider deckbuilding. The easiest-to-understand way toward victory is, in fact, to pack Attack cards: when talking to people frustrated with draws, we ask them "How many Attacks are in your deck?" right? You hate it when you draw all Moves. But that's balanced with needing Moves, because if you draw multiple Attacks when you can't use them then you just crawl across the map and slowly bleed.

I love building for my Elf Priest because I know I don't have to worry about Move. Dash! Done! Load up on everything else (e.g., take Boots with non-Move cards) and you're guaranteed of being functional on any turn.

I have a Dwarf Wizard, though. And recently I started a party with a Dwarf Warrior, Dwarf Priest, and Human Wizard. And the Dwarf default Walk . . . is . . . too . . . slow. Think about this: how many enemies have default Move 3 or greater? All of those enemies can get to victory squares before your dwarves and keep you at preferred killing range forever (yay, Troglodytes). Now: how many enemies have default Move 2? You have no advantage. They can keep you at preferred killing range forever. Lastly: how many enemies have default Move 1? Zombies. Congratulations, your Dwarf is livelier than a Zombie.

And then there's Encumber. Encumber 2 is almost as good as Halt on a Dwarf, and it becomes common enough at mid-level adventures or higher.

Of course, I give my Dwarf characters ranged Attacks or tough defenses as appropriate, matching the playstyle. But I also have to give them more (and better) Move cards, risking hands of nothing but Move. Notice that it's a challenge and I'm compensating for it: this is every bit as real a challenge as keeping a "wimpy Elf" alive.

As a sidenote: I've also seen people saying that increased mobility is only useful on limited maps. I haven't responded because I was doing a personal count of "low-mobility" maps before commenting. Now . . . I have to conclude that I'm just using mobility more than other players, because I haven't found a single "low-mobility" map. I've found what I'd call "medium-mobility" and "if you don't move then you're gonna die" maps. This includes victory square maps. Does anyone have specific "slow" battles in mind?

 

Cool, but could you give specific examples? I'm trying to elaborate on this and see how the game's set up.

 

There are basically all the diamonds of the kobolds maps where you have little to no ability to play keepaway other then that i got nothing off the top of my head

 

There's also maps where the enemy outmanouever you by ridiculous margins, like oh say shieldhaven prison, or any map with war monkeys. Doesn't matter if you're elf or dwarf, you will get surrounded.

Honestly my favorite parties have been all-dwarf, all-human, or a mix of the two, rarely have elves made the mix... and then only the warrior is considered, unless it's a 1hp challenge, then it's elves all the way(of course). The elf priest might be given consideration as well, mainly because there's an armor with bless and 2x heavy armor(encumber 1).

Elf wizard is too fragile. I actually prefer dwarf wizard most. Dwarf wizard is least hampered by having walk as default move. It has ranged attacks, and walk is good enough for retreating out of melee range.

 

I disagree. Those go in the "if you don't move then you're gonna die" category: consider how many people respond to "Shieldhaven is too hard" threads with "try not to let the dogs surround you," as though it were somehow possible.

Me, heck yes I outmaneuver (-manoeuvre) War Monkeys. I'm not gonna let them pick my pockets. And yes, I outmaneuver them with my Dwarf Wizard, too: when he only gets Walk, I strategize positioning across the other faster party members.

I'm still thinking about the "start surrounded" and "massive mob" levels mentioned above. Those definitely sound harder for movement (unless you can Scamper, Teleport or Fly).

 

I have to say one thing for elf wizards if you have that card that passively turns your moves in to teleports they must be hell to catch on any map

 

Nice feedback...

It felt like work....guess I'm too old/jaded...

My observations were based off lvl 1-10 w/o putting in too much effort into deck-building, trying to simulate what a casual gamer would experience. My concern isn't movement. I've tested planar travel/dim traveller/energizing move etc on elf wizard. I can move fine. Its trading blows that blows....pun not intended

Maybe its because of the fact that I've used all 9 chars, maybe its my playstyle, maybe I suck...my elf wizard has consistently shown its fragility, independent of movement range/the map/the cards she holds. I've had to babysit her at the start of every map and ask myself,"how many turns will she last before she's toast? Is my priest able to get to her if she takes a hit? She has 1 hp left, do I unload the most powerful spell in her hand ? or move to somewhere safe? If I move her, will I regret not unleashing that omgOPbbq card when she gets hit?". Because of these, those games tend to last longer as I've had to prioritize her survival over, say, a killing blow on a monster. This translates directly to lesser xp/hr, she becomes a power-leveling deterrent and a situational pawn. Imo, playing characters should be built to fulfill a wide repertoire of roles regardless of playing style (phalanx, skitters, manips, weenies, Timmy, Johnny or Spike etc). She is offense incarnate but a total defense nub and mobility isn't a good enough solution for me to want her in my party long term. At least where lvl 1-10 is concerned.

 

To be fair the hp difference between a dwarf and a elf is about 1 attack at that level if even that so it cant be too big of a deal and like i said before their dodgy racials are really really good

 

Looking at my notes, here's some maps where you either start surrounded or have minimal room to maneuver:
trog wizard 1st map
shieldhaven 3,4 map
lizard priest maps 1,2
diamonds of the kobolds 1,2,3
frozen earth 3rd map
viscous tombs 2nd map
pools of slime 1st map

 

At lvl 9, she's been hit with Lunging Hack (11dam, range1), vicious thrust (7dam, range1), Bludgeoning Branch (9dam, range3), Clubbing Branch(8dam, range2), Potent Stab(8dam, range2), Shambling Bash(8dam, range1) and iirc, 1hit KO'ed by Mighty Bludgeon(14dam, range1) and Tree Limb Smash(11dam, range1).

I must be doing something wrong

 

Did you start using your whole repertoire of items on your wizards as soon as you made them or did you try to work your way up from nothing?

 

Cool, I'll think about those. Just going from memory, I think the first Shieldhaven map (where you're in a twisting corridor) is one where mobility did me nothing, as the Men at Arms were right there blocking the route and they were the biggest threat (so I've never run past them). Looking at your diary thread, I'd argue that fight three is an "if you don't move then you're gonna die" map, as good positioning saves you from Cowardly Attacks.

But regardless, that's a total of 11. I counted something like 71 battles in your diary thread going up to Pools of Slime, level 11. Even if it were a total of 1/3 of all maps, I'd still call that a reasonable ratio: special "surprise, you can't maneuver, can you still survive?" challenges should be just as sparse as any other type of challenge.

 

Okay, double-posting because I've analyzed battles in more detail. I've gotten to the point that I can make some conclusions.

First, it turns out I disagree with your list, Zalminen: most of the "surrounded" maps are ones where you are benefited by maneuvering. In the extreme, there's the last battle of Beneath the Frozen Earth, where the Wizard Troglodytes may "surround" you but actively avoid getting up close. Here's an analysis--and I thank you many times for your gameplay thread on this; you too, Pengw1n. I just played Goblins in the Woods to round out my collection and can go from memory above there.

I call it "neutral" if you're free to do whatever you want, "need to move" if you'll survive better if you think about maneuverability and positioning, "depends on strategy" if there are options, "movement is limited" if you just won't get much use of anything better than Walk, and "movement is futile" if it's even worse:

Level 1:
Raid on Ommlet
Kobold Encampment
Tunnels into Darkness
White Skull Canyon
- neutral

Level 2:
Caverns of the Troglodytes
The Wizard's Workshop
- need to move (The Wizard's Workshop mostly just has Clumsy Golems, but it's an early level, so players should learn)

Level 3:
Lair of the Trog Wizard - need to move
Highway Robbery - depends on strategy (it's "neutral" if you don't worry about Blocks, "need to move" if you do, and here you have plenty of space)

Level 4:
Ruby Demon Portal - need to move
Dungeon of the Lizard Priest - battle 1 need to move, 2 movement is limited (here's the first big "argh you're trapped" battle)

Level 5:
Rescue from Shieldhaven Prison - battle 1 movement is limited, 2 depends on strategy (some dogs, some Block-using humans, I personally would try to maneuver), 3 need to move, 4 depends on strategy, 5 depends on strategy
Slub'Gut's Sanctum - need to move

Level 6:
Diamonds of the Kobolds - battle 1 movement is limited, 2-3 depends on strategy (I maneuver a lot on 3)
The White Star - battle 1-2 movement is limited, 3 neutral

Level 7:
Beneath the Frozen Earth - need to move
The Throne of Strench - need to move

Level 8:
The Compass of Xorr - neutral (for these next four, there's variation in things like dog-fighting, arena-victory-point-management, and so on, but it's mostly free for movement)
Lord Stafford's Treasure - neutral

Level 9:
Gladiatorial Arena, Qualifying Round - neutral
Gladiatorial Arena, Round 1 - neutral

Level 10:
Garnet Demon Portal - need to move
The Viscous Tombs - depends on strategy (often movement is easy, but usually it's wise to move to neutralize Death Meld, like by focusing on one target and/or just plain running away)

Level 11:
The Pools of Slime - depends on strategy
Goblins in the Woods - battle 1 neutral, 2 movement is futile (when enemies start to have lunging attacks and defensive moves, positioning is in trouble: even moreso later when it's lunging Bashes), 3 depends on strategy (enemies like the Goblin Berzerker need to be avoided, but this doesn't need to be by running: pushing them also works), 4 movement is limited

. . . Now, I can't remember everything, so what follows is not as thorough:

Level 12:
Tree Forts of the Goblin King - (forgot, but there are elements like Goblins in the Woods here)
The Tomb of Tvericus - mostly neutral or need to move (undead)

Level 13:
The Jewel of Alet Zhav - mostly neutral or need to move (undead)
Shrine of the Astral Guardians - neutral (though you do need to position yourself to manage the blasts)

Level 14:
Return to the Astral Shrine - neutral (likewise)
Citrine Demon Portal - need to move

Level 15:
Riddle of the Gnome Lords - neutral
Secret of the Gnome Lords - neutral

Level 16:
Attack of the War Monkeys - need to move
Temple of Terror - need to move

Level 17:
Black Oaken Heart - movement is limited (or futile)
Dungeon of the Swamp King - neutral sometimes, movement is futile other times

. . . So out of all those, there are 7 or 8 total adventures (out of 36 non-premium) that crimp on your ability to move, and even in those only a subset of all battles apply. That's something like 16 or so total battles where an Elf's innate movement advantage doesn't help you.

And that was a lot of effort and research for just one post. I need lunch.